From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Nov 30 15:50:27 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fAUMoRU00265 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:50:27 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4130.cisnet.com [207.17.248.130]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:50:09 -0500 Message-ID: <3C080D79.70015C06@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:51:37 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Up and running! Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This list uses the idcomm address because sendmail is not configured to accept mail for atmsite.org at the moment. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From mayen1@mwt.net Sun Dec 2 16:42:18 2001 Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.mwt.net [207.190.94.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB2NgHU04738 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:42:17 -0700 Received: from mwt.net (pm3-1-109.lavalle.mwt.net [207.190.68.109]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB2NgAr00778 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:42:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C0ABC95.96288239@mwt.net> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:43:17 -0600 From: Joe Mayenschein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] THANKS!!! Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Thanks soooo very much for starting this. I don't know what it is, but I have downloaded many ray tracing programs and never have figured out how to use any of them. geez!! Thanks Joe From crawford@goingware.com Sun Dec 2 17:08:52 2001 Received: from dolomite.mint.net (dolomite.mint.net [216.227.128.33]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB308oU04813 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:08:50 -0700 Received: from goingware.com (me-rockland-dial-278.mint.adelphia.net [216.227.146.106]) by dolomite.mint.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12762 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:08:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3C0AC441.1080109@goingware.com> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 19:16:01 -0500 From: "Michael D. Crawford" Organization: GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011120 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Greetings from Mike Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi, I just joined this list after seeing the announcement on the ATM list. I thought I might have something useful to contribute. I have a long history of _attempting_ to raytrace, without a lot of success. I used to use the procedures I found in Amateur Telescope Making, only with a hand calculator instead of trig tables and an adding machine. Some of my earliest attempts at computer programming were trying to write raytracing programs in either FORTRAN or C. I wasn't a good enough programmer back then to do it, but I am now - I've been programming as a career for over 14 years. I downloaded OSLO LT recently and plan to use it to study the design for my 8" ritchey-chretien, but haven't messed with it yet. But I'm thinking, over a long period of time, of writing an optical design program that would be Free Software in the sense that the Free Software Foundation puts it - it would be licensed under the GNU General Public License, and so would come with source code. I think it's great that OSLO LT is provided as freeware but I think it would be better if people had a powerful tool that they also possessed the source to, with the right to make and redistribute modifications. So I don't want to just know how raytracing is done working with existing programs, I'm interested in understanding how these programs work internally, the algorithms and data structures used, what would be the requirements for a really useful tool and so on. Also any program I would write would be cross-platform, probably using the ZooLib cross-platform application framework (http://zoolib.sourceforge.net/) so you could run it on any OS you like. I have a web page about my telescope making at http://www.geometricvisions.com/atm/ When I started college I majored in astronomy at CalTech. I later changed my major to Physics and transferred to the University of California at Santa Cruz, where I successfully petitioned for credit in UCSC's optics course because of my experience making telescopes as a teenager. Mike -- Michael D. Crawford GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting http://www.goingware.com crawford@goingware.com Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow. "I give you this one rule of conduct. Do what you will, but speak out always. Be shunned, be hated, be ridiculed, be scared, be in doubt, but don't be gagged." -- John J. Chapman, "Make a Bonfire of Your Reputations" http://www.goingware.com/reputation/ From bolenb@pacbell.net Sun Dec 2 17:37:19 2001 Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB30bJU04885 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:37:19 -0700 Received: from jgoins ([206.170.4.75]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GNQ00IETSE061@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sun, 02 Dec 2001 16:37:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 16:37:43 -0800 From: Joseph Goins To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Reply-to: Joseph Goins Message-id: <001401c17b92$b8ed84e0$4b04aace@jgoins> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C17B4F.AA3C5CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [Raytrace] Where do you get the software for Raytracing? Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C17B4F.AA3C5CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's a first one for the archives. What software is recommended for = raytracing? Joseph B. Goins 1091 Harness Circle #1 San Ramon, CA 94583 (925) 277-1351 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C17B4F.AA3C5CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's a first one for the = archives.  What=20 software is recommended for raytracing?
 
Joseph B. Goins
1091 Harness Circle = #1
San=20 Ramon, CA 94583
(925) 277-1351
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C17B4F.AA3C5CC0-- From klowther@cisnet.com Sun Dec 2 18:27:31 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB31RVU05007 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:27:31 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with SMTP id ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:27:24 -0500 Message-ID: <132902001121312724891@cisnet.com> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 4 X-EM-Registration: #00D0530210911E009A00 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Vop Mail Web Version 1.2(8) X-IP-Address: 204.179.144.227 From: klowther@cisnet.com To: bolenb@pacbell.net, raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where do you get the software for Raytracing? Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:27:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: John is workikng on some preliminary information and was waiting to give people a chance to sign up before getting started. OSLO will probably be the software of choice. There is a free download version that does more than us amatures are going to need. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Goins Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:37:43 PM To: Subject: [Raytrace] Where do you get the software for Raytracing? > Here's a first one for the archives. What software is recommended for raytracing? > > Joseph B. Goins > 1091 Harness Circle #1 > San Ramon, CA 94583 > (925) 277-1351 From klowther@cisnet.com Sun Dec 2 18:32:10 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB31WAU05029 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:32:10 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with SMTP id ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:32:03 -0500 Message-ID: <5303200112131323912@cisnet.com> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 4 X-EM-Registration: #00D0530210911E009A00 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Vop Mail Web Version 1.2(8) X-IP-Address: 204.179.144.227 From: klowther@cisnet.com To: crawford@goingware.com, Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Greetings from Mike Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:32:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: All 'good stuff' but we just announced the list and we hope you will have to repeat this in a few days because others will have joined. ;-) Some people do their email from work or don't check it as often as others. So everyone, hold on a bit. Give others a chance to join before we get into the heart of the issue. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D. Crawford Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:16:01 PM To: Subject: [Raytrace] Greetings from Mike From jd-upton@texas.net Mon Dec 3 10:50:04 2001 Received: from mg01.austin.ibm.com (mg01.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.18]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB3Ho3U06543 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:50:04 -0700 Received: from austin.ibm.com (netmail.austin.ibm.com [9.3.7.137]) by mg01.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15212; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:50:46 -0600 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.53.247.178]) by austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30086; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:49:53 -0600 Received: from UPTON.texas.net (upton.austin.ibm.com [9.53.68.105]) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id LAA04016; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:49:51 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20011203074836.00c42d70@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:50:14 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where do you get the software for Raytracing? Cc: Joseph Goins In-Reply-To: <001401c17b92$b8ed84e0$4b04aace@jgoins> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Joseph, At 04:37 PM 12/2/01 -0800, Joseph Goins wrote: >Here's a first one for the archives. What software is recommended for >raytracing? That is an excellent starter question for the list. It gives us a chance to list some of the ray trace resources that are available to ATMs. All the programs listed below are available free of charge. Several are scaled back (limited) versions of professional optical design and evaluation programs. The "big brothers" of these programs can cost thousands of dollars (US). The companies that produce them have made these free versions available to amateurs and students like us. There are a number of other low cost and free ray tracing programs available. Most will do basic ray tracing and spot diagram generation. I do not mean to slight the usefulness of those programs by not listing them here. This list simply consists of the "heavy duty" programs that I have at least heard something about. For this mail list to achieve its goal of sharing knowledge of these programs, we need folks who have used them to actively participate. I have played with OSLO-LT, but have only scratched the surface of what it can do. I expect to learn as much as anyone else on this list. Our goal is to generate a set of tutorials and FAQ concerning how to use ray tracing programs to answer the types of questions that come up on the ATM list from time to time. The ray tracing FAQ will ultimately reside on the ATM_Site web site. I wrote up one such tutorial for my web site last year. Hopefully, this list will inspire other step-by-step tutorials to be written for the ATM_Site. So feel free to ask questions about how to do some specific tasks in these ray tracing programs and we will see if the group can figure out how to do it. We will all learn something in the process and common questions and procedures will go into the FAQ for future use. Here is the list of free programs. I have included the known limitations of each as best I know them. The links will take you to the respective companies' web sites where you can download the program. OSLO-LT (Limited to 10 surfaces) http://www.sinopt.com/ ZEMAX (Demo only -- Cannot save?? How is it limited??) http://www.focus-software.com/demo_z.html MODAS (Limited to 4 surfaces) http://ivankra.tripod.com/modas.html ATMOS (Limited to 3 surfaces) http://web.tiscali.it/ATMOS/ SYNOPSYS (Full featured for 90 days -- Limited to 12 surfaces thereafter) http://home.gwi.net/OSD/home.htm Roadrunner LT (Limited to 12 surfaces) http://www.acmeoptics.com/ John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From klowther@cisnet.com Mon Dec 3 14:35:35 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB3LZZU06933 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:35:35 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4145.cisnet.com [207.17.248.145]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:35:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3C0BF062.EF22A6A5@cisnet.com> Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 16:36:34 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] membership level Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: We have been slowly increasing in number. Up to 22, less than 24 hours after anouncing. We have decided to keep the membership list hidden, even to members, for a little added security. I believe the mailer program gives individual the right to hide their email on that list any how. The archives are public however and do show email addresses. If there is much concern, we can close the archives to the public, though I hate to do that. I get email addresses from the ATM archive from time to time. ;-) My provider has good spam filters in place and I hardly ever get spammed, so it doesn't bother me. I have posted to the ATM list hundreds of times. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From trickar1@san.rr.com Mon Dec 3 22:41:59 2001 Received: from smtp2.san.rr.com (smtp2.san.rr.com [24.25.195.39]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB45fxU07724 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:41:59 -0700 Received: from zxc (66-27-59-56.san.rr.com [66.27.59.56]) by smtp2.san.rr.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id fB45fnm15870 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:41:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <012b01c17c85$776e5aa0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> From: "Tim Rickard" To: Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:35:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: [Raytrace] new member Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hello. Thanks Ken for setting up this list. I look forward to contributing what I can, though mostly I'll be learning from others for now. cheers, Tim From bolenb@pacbell.net Tue Dec 4 11:04:34 2001 Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB4I4YU08813 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:04:34 -0700 Received: from jgoins ([206.170.4.208]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GNT00D5XZJBI9@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:04:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:05:05 -0800 From: Joseph Goins To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Reply-to: Joseph Goins Message-id: <003f01c17cee$347f4060$f104aace@jgoins> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <012b01c17c85$776e5aa0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> Subject: [Raytrace] Virus in Email Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Mr. Smith's emails contain virus's. Be careful. Don't open them. Joe From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Wed Dec 5 13:43:41 2001 Received: from poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.254.134]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB5KheU11089 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:43:40 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17352 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:43:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011205143623.00ad1b50@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:05:14 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Hi everybody Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi folks: Just signed up on this list to see what is going on. Apparently not much activity as yet. So I thought I'd introduce myself and my area of interest. I work on the development of lightweight mirrors. The details are in a web site which unfortunately is not publicly accessible at the moment due to NASA concerns about security. The web site is in the process of being relocated to another address where the world can access it. My interest is to design new telescopes around the lightweight mirrors. Hence ray tracing. I have done a fair amount of work using Beam3, Beam4, and TDesign (Rutten and van Venrooij). I have played around with OSLO LT, I also have a copy of the latest MODAS and Zemax 10.0. I'm still learning to use those. Most of the mirrors we have produced so far are spherical, although we just made our first parabola a short while ago. My current interest is therefore to check out existing published designs of spherical mirror telescopes (mostly from S&T) and see which ones are the most cost-effective to build. By cost-effective I mean the least number of optical components (lenses, secondary and tertiary mirrors, etc), components that are easy to make, and where the tolerancing is not too exact. Not having had any formal education in optical design, I'm sort of feeling my way around. I look forward to hearing what other members of this group are engaged in. Regards, P.C. Chen From jd-upton@texas.net Thu Dec 6 17:41:32 2001 Received: from mw2.texas.net (mw2.texas.net [206.127.30.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB70fWU13352 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:41:32 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet30-020.austin.texas.net [209.99.102.20]) by mw2.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB70f5E15380 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:41:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011206181249.00b20570@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 18:17:58 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Raytrace List Origins (Long) Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List Members, Welcome. As background material, I am posting excerpts from some of the off-line email conversations that lead to the generation of this list. My cuts of non-pertinent material are denoted by "[snip]". Ken Lowther was the driving force behind getting the list started. I didn't find out about being appointed list administrator until after the list was created. Thanks Ken. (...I think...) To repay the honor(?), my first duty was to make Ken alternate administrator. :^) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = At 12:55 PM 11/27/01 -0500, Ken Lowther wrote on the ATM List: >Please consider 'donating' your spec files to the atm site so that others >can use them for reference. Having these files could be a useful starting >point for some of us that are less adept at these programs. At 07:57 AM 11/28/01 -0600, John D. Upton wrote off-list: > I don't mind sending you the OSLO file I used, but I don't think it > would be of use to anyone. There are already several OSLO and ZEMAX > files on the ATM Site. They represent unusual or sometimes "complex" > designs that may be of use to others. A file describing a single > paraboloidal mirror for a Newtonian seems of little use to me. > > What *is* needed is a set of tutorials for each of OSLO, ZEMAX and > MODAS that explain how folks can get the information that was discussed > in this thread on the ATM List. The useful data is not in the file -- it > is in which buttons you push (and commands you use) to try to get some > insight into the problem at hand. [snip] At 05:15 PM 11/28/01 -0500, Ken Lowther wrote off-list: >[snip] When W=B put out the book on lens design with computers I bought it >and downloaded OSLO. It was a very frustrating experience. I put a lot >of time into it with very little in the way of results. Maybe start with >the Newtonian and see how it goes? If you want to collaborate I can set >up a quick email group. I'm sure we could get a few people from the list >to offer input. [snip] At 04:56 PM 11/29/01 -0500, Ken Lowther wrote off-list: >I could set up a list and see who is interested in learning a little OSLO >and seeing if we could turn the most common questions and problems into a >FAQ or tutorial. If it works fine. If there isn't enough interest, you >have saved yourself a lot of work. ;-) At 06:32 PM 11/29/01 +1000, Peter John Smith wrote off-list: >I have found the level of help provided with Raytracing software as >pathetic and I fully relate to Ken's comments. > >This includes Zemax. [snip] The instructions do tersely cover features >but one needs much more because one needs to understand how to use the >program before the terse comments make any sense............ > >I eventually taught myself to use Zemax (well - a useful portion of its >features. Doubt anyone could understand all) by using some demo files >which came with it and a real menagerie of mainly old optics books. [snip] > >In my opinion you need > >1/ example files of a large range of types of optical instruments. This >is especially true when the ray path inverts and rays pass some surfaces >more than once. > >2/ some optical background. Preferably a lot. But the ironic thing is >that a lot of good work can be done with a good modern optimising >raytracer with limited optics theory. > >3/ more specific info on the ways modern raytracers have >developed. There is almost a set of jargon relating to them. It is not >in the books to my knowledge and is probably best overcome by good tutorials. > >I found the most useful technique to work outwards from example >files. Then substitute other specs for other example designs available to >me by modifying these files. The two best books for this I had which gave >enough examples and some assessment of them were 'Telescope Optics - >Evaluation and Design' by Rutten and VenRooij and Warren J Smith's >'Modern Lens Design - A Resource Manual'. Also published designs in S&T >over the years often gave some assessment as well as specs and were >generally correct. Smith's book is mainly a collection of Patent Specs >and some others. It is not on modern design methods. But it includes >examples of most types of optics designs WITH A SHORT RUNDOWN ON THEIR >ASSESSMENT which is really valuable. There is also an introduction to the >book which matched a lot of what I wanted to know. It is not aimed at any >one raytracer which is a both a limitation and a strength. Being general >sounds like a good idea but it is amazing how slight variations in the way >each raytracer presents and accepts info is such a block to a newcomer. > >The least useful books were on raytracing theory. > >One real trap was that many designs I had collected were simply wrong or >afflicted with typos. When one has no confidence to recognize this it has >a huge negative impact. You would be amazed at how many prescriptions are >bandied around that are simply wrong. > >Unfortunately I cannot see a way to solve this problem easily because - > >1/ Most top line raytracers with a nice user interface with any >reputation are expensive and need a dongle to run. Thus there is little >point in their files being made readily available. Vary few 'free' >programs include optimisation in a simple enough interface for it to be >useable. With all of its limitations, OSLO still stands out here as being >useful. [snip] > >2/ Files for one program are not readily available to to others. Despite >the fact that some will 'import' others files, I have found this of very >limited use. As raytracers grow in sophistication features are added. >Unless everyones import features are all updated these now become >unreadable to many other programs. This is the reason I have not placed >more files in the ATM space. I have had many requests from people for >help because they could not import my files and have lately taken more >to ------.txt files of prescriptions for intercommunication. This is >pathetic but it always works. Of course the recipient must have enough >experience to use them. One product I think should be more well known is >OPTIX which will translate raytracing file formats reasonably. The writer >has a good simple product and seems to intend extending the freeware LT >version to a fully optimising program which will then cost a significant >amount. It is a little like a Zemax lookalike. But, realistically, is >there room for another professional raytrace on the market. At the moment >the LT version is useful as a file viewer with some assessment capability >but unless kept up to date as other programs evolve will lose its usefulness. > >At one time I thought of placing files for every design on my web site in >the ATM space and am willing to do this (partly done) but is it >worthwhile in Zemax format ? . Every one of my web articles contains a >txt prescription. > >[snip] > >As a matter of interest, on the Zemax web site there are many files for >download. > >To download go to: http://www.focus-software.com/file_exchange/ > >Many of these are of weird setups - things that would take you ages to >figure out how to set up in the lens editor. In fact, some are people >showing off their expertise I think. But many could be the basis for >other work. One set of these files corresponds for all the examples in >Wilson's books on reflective telescope optics. Maybe we should have links >to any sites like this in the ATM space.. > >You can also download a demo version of Zemax which contains many many >useful examples. > >I think a few more 'Tutorials' like that done by John Upton may be useful >but that requires a huge amount of work. [snip] And all this work may >become void with changes in the user interface or file structure of the >raytracing software. > >Articles on any design could include some discussion of evaluation >techniques and the evolution of the design. > >As a matter of interest, I have not started a new Zemax file in years. I >always modify an existing file of something similar. Has its good and bad >points. Is very easy but sometimes contains an obscure artifact that >becomes a problem. But it is a powerful approach which suits my lazy >inclination. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From jd-upton@texas.net Thu Dec 6 17:46:49 2001 Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB70kmU13405 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:46:48 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet30-020.austin.texas.net [209.99.102.20]) by mw3.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB70kRQ14437 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:46:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 18:46:13 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List, Our membership seems to be pretty stable now at about 35. Let's get going. Where do you want to get started on this list? I don't know exactly what level of knowledge already exists, so I am unsure. What do you want to discuss? One possible starting point is to discuss things common to all ray-tracing programs -- or whether there is anything in common. For starters, do all programs use the same conventions for data entry? OSLO uses a "spreadsheet" format. If you draw out a design on paper with light starting from the left, the following rules apply. Are these basic rules the same for all other programs we might be interested in using? 1. Each surface encountered by the light is numbered in the order that the incident light transverses it. If the light is reflected back onto a previous surface, it is numbered again, but the parameters can be picked up from the original specification. 2. If light is travelling left to right, distances are positive. If right to left, they are negative. At each reflection, the sign of the directions changes. (For example; if light is going left to right, the sign of distances is positive. If that light is reflected, the next distance is negative. If it is again reflected, the sign changes back to positive.) 3. Each surface has a radius of curvature, aperture, thickness, and media associated with it. Surfaces may also have special data such as conic constant associated with them. The thickness and media are understood to be where the light is entering upon traversing the surface. 4. For a curved surface, if the center of curvature is to the right of the surface, the ROC is a positive number. If the COC is to the left of the surface, the ROC is a negative number. 5. Each surface has a thickness associated with it. The thickness is simply the distance to the next sequential surface. Lenses have a thickness to them, of course. Air spaces are also considered "thicknesses". Are these basic rules the same in all programs? They seem to be consistent with all the optics and ray-tracing texts I have read. What other "rules" might be considered common to most if not all programs? John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From wchurchill2nh@hotmail.com Thu Dec 6 19:44:26 2001 Received: from hotmail.com (f10.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.10]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB72iQU13586 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:44:26 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:44:05 -0800 Received: from 64.158.27.123 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 02:44:04 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.158.27.123] From: "Wayne Churchill" To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:44:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2001 02:44:05.0193 (UTC) FILETIME=[0941FB90:01C17EC9] Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi John, Hello List Members, A question concerning surfaces: When considering optically flat reflecting surfaces, how is a change in the angle of the direction of the light cone usually denoted? And thickness: When considering the thickness of a lens, is the on axis thickness of the center of the lens the thickness value used? For those of us who haven't kept up or brushed up on optical terminologies, should we develope a short list of common optical terms and meanings so we're able to communicate effectively? Thankyou, Wayne Churchill >From: "John D. Upton" >To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com >Subject: [Raytrace] Where To Start? >Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 18:46:13 -0600 > >List, > > Our membership seems to be pretty stable now at about 35. Let's get >going. > > Where do you want to get started on this list? I don't know exactly >what level of knowledge already exists, so I am unsure. What do you want >to discuss? One possible starting point is to discuss things common to all >ray-tracing programs -- or whether there is anything in common. > > For starters, do all programs use the same conventions for data entry? > > OSLO uses a "spreadsheet" format. If you draw out a design on paper >with light starting from the left, the following rules apply. Are these >basic rules the same for all other programs we might be interested in >using? > >1. Each surface encountered by the light is numbered in the order that the >incident light transverses it. If the light is reflected back onto a >previous surface, it is numbered again, but the parameters can be picked up >from the original specification. > >2. If light is travelling left to right, distances are positive. If right >to left, they are negative. At each reflection, the sign of the directions >changes. (For example; if light is going left to right, the sign of >distances is positive. If that light is reflected, the next distance is >negative. If it is again reflected, the sign changes back to positive.) > >3. Each surface has a radius of curvature, aperture, thickness, and media >associated with it. Surfaces may also have special data such as conic >constant associated with them. The thickness and media are understood to >be where the light is entering upon traversing the surface. > >4. For a curved surface, if the center of curvature is to the right of the >surface, the ROC is a positive number. If the COC is to the left of the >surface, the ROC is a negative number. > >5. Each surface has a thickness associated with it. The thickness is >simply the distance to the next sequential surface. Lenses have a >thickness to them, of course. Air spaces are also considered >"thicknesses". > > Are these basic rules the same in all programs? They seem to be >consistent with all the optics and ray-tracing texts I have read. What >other "rules" might be considered common to most if not all programs? > >John D. Upton >Georgetown, TX > "The ATM's Workshop" > "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" > >_______________________________________________ >Raytrace mailing list >Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com >http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From klowther@cisnet.com Thu Dec 6 19:50:17 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB72oHU13615 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:50:17 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:50:00 -0500 Message-ID: <3C102EA1.5CB460F4@cisnet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:51:13 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? References: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: "John D. Upton" wrote: > > > Where do you want to get started on this list? I don't know exactly > what level of knowledge already exists, so I am unsure. What do you want > to discuss? One possible starting point is to discuss things common to all > ray-tracing programs -- or whether there is anything in common. For many of us, a simple file to look at in a program might help. Maybe pick a program and look at the file and do simple modifications. A simple lens might be a good starting place. Followed by a reflector. Figuring out how/why to set up the original paramaters isn't intuitive as I recall. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From klowther@cisnet.com Thu Dec 6 19:56:55 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB72utU13642 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:56:55 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:56:39 -0500 Message-ID: <3C10302B.2CFC6A78@cisnet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:57:47 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Raytrace List Origins (Long) References: <4.3.1.2.20011206181249.00b20570@mail.texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: "John D. Upton" wrote: > > > Ken Lowther was the driving force behind getting the list started. Hey, 5 minutes of my time. In the following messages, it was clear that John really wanted to help bring amatures up a level. I simply did a 5 minute exploit of that. ;-) > I didn't find out about being appointed list administrator until after the > list was created. Thanks Ken. (...I think...) Aren't surprises nice. :) The software allows for multiple admins if things get hectic we could 'saddle' Peter with night shift. Depending on your perspective. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From klowther@cisnet.com Thu Dec 6 20:05:28 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB735SU13674 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:05:28 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:05:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3C10322F.F5AD33F2@cisnet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:06:23 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Wayne Churchill wrote: > > Hi John, Hello List Members, > A question concerning surfaces: > When considering optically flat reflecting surfaces, how is a change in the > angle of the direction of the light cone usually denoted? > And thickness: > When considering the thickness of a lens, is the on axis thickness of the > center of the lens the thickness value used? > For those of us who haven't kept up or brushed up on optical terminologies, > should we develope a short list of common optical terms and meanings so > we're able to communicate effectively? > Thankyou, > Wayne Churchill > I haven't played with the software for a while now, but I believe you use center thickness on a lens and the software takes care of the curve. When last I used OSLO LT. it did come with a few sample files. Like I said in my last post, even making simple changes to them wasn't intuitive. I would suggest you down load the software and take a look at the sample files. I'm sure there is one in there for a lens. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From klowther@cisnet.com Thu Dec 6 20:18:25 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB73IPU13713 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:18:25 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:18:08 -0500 Message-ID: <3C103539.44527D5C@cisnet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:19:21 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Archives Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: There were a couple of noteworthy posts early one. Not much in the archives so you may want to check them out. Michael Crawford introduced him self along with his credentials early on. Peter Chen did the same a few days ago. I'd recommend you check out those posts if you weren't on the list yet. Since one of the purposes of this list is to knock out a FAQ/tutorial, any of you that fancy your selves as scribes or are proficient at web content, please keep an eye towards helping with this aspect. John says OSLO maintains a mailing list. No activity as of yet. We may ask them to peek in on us. http://www.atmsite.org/pipermail/raytrace/2001-December/subject.html -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From jd-upton@texas.net Thu Dec 6 23:17:49 2001 Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB76HjU14006 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:17:49 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet06-14.austin.texas.net [209.99.35.14]) by mw3.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB76HRo03665; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:17:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011206233627.00b60f00@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:17:08 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Cc: "Wayne Churchill" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Wayne, At 09:44 PM 12/6/2001 -0500, Wayne Churchill wrote: >A question concerning surfaces: >When considering optically flat reflecting surfaces, how is a change in >the angle of the direction of the light cone usually denoted? If the reflecting surface is on axis, you only need to change the direction by changing the sign. If the reflecting surface is at an angle to the ray direction, you have to set up the surface tilted to the angle. I have only used that mode once and would have to play with OSLO a bit to duplicate the setup. >When considering the thickness of a lens, is the on axis thickness of the >center of the lens the thickness value used? Yes, the center axial thickness of a lens is used. The programs figure out everything else. >For those of us who haven't kept up or brushed up on optical >terminologies, should we develope a short list of common optical terms and >meanings so we're able to communicate effectively? Yes, a great suggestion. Do we have a volunteer to put together the Ray-Tracer dictionary? John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From jd-upton@texas.net Thu Dec 6 23:18:20 2001 Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB76IEU14028 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:18:15 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet06-14.austin.texas.net [209.99.35.14]) by mw3.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB76Hto03726 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:17:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011206234317.00b55290@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:13:17 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? In-Reply-To: <3C102EA1.5CB460F4@cisnet.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Ken, At 09:51 PM 12/6/2001 -0500, Ken Lowther wrote: >For many of us, a simple file to look at in a program might help. Maybe >pick a program and look at the file and do simple modifications. A >simple lens might be a good starting place. Followed by a reflector. Perhaps a couple of text prescriptions from OSLO will help illustrate the (typical?) data entry formats. This is the text printout of an OSLO design for a simple double convex lens made of Schott BK7 glass. *LENS DATA Simple Double Convex Lens SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.0000e+14 AIR AST 10.000000 0.250000 1.000000 AS BK7 C 2 -20.000000 12.826432 S 0.991482 S AIR IMS -- -- 1.2937e-05 S The lines labeled AST and 2 describe the lens. (The AST just means that the aperture stop for the lens is at the first surface.) Remember that it takes two lines (surfaces) to fully describe a lens. The left side has a ROC of 10.0" and the right side 20.0" Note that the right side's curvature is negative since it is convex and the COC must be to the left of the surface. The thickness of the lens is shown on the AST line. It is 0.25" thick. The thickness shown on line 2 is the "thickness of the air between the right surface of the lens and the image plane -- in other words the focal length is 12.826". Now, here is an example for a concave spherical mirror with a ROC of 30". *LENS DATA Simple Spherical Mirror SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.0000e+14 AIR AST -30.000000 -15.000000 S 3.000000 AS REFL_HATCH IMS -- -- 1.5000e-05 S In this case, the AST line shows the mirror. The ROC is negative since the COC is to the left of the mirror's surface. The thickness is again the focal length or the thickness of air between the mirror's surface and the image plane. The focal length is negative because the light has reflected off the mirror and is now travelling right to left. Do these two examples help illustrate the rules or conventions in the previous note? John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From aboskov@pop.wiredcity.com.au Fri Dec 7 07:26:45 2001 Received: from mail.wiredcity.com.au (mail.wiredcity.com.au [203.161.127.131]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id fB7EQiU14688 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 07:26:44 -0700 Received: (qmail 14493 invoked by uid 505); 7 Dec 2001 22:26:20 +0800 Received: from srs9-113-159.wire.wiredcity.com.au (HELO laptop.pop.wiredcity.com.au) (203.161.113.159) by mail.wiredcity.com.au with SMTP; 7 Dec 2001 22:26:19 +0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011207221800.009d1a50@pop.wiredcity.com.au> X-Sender: aboskov@pop.wiredcity.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 22:26:00 +0800 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Alex Boskov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Hi all Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi, Well Peter got the ball rolling so I thought I'd add my bit. I've got OSLO LT and a few other design packages but the problem I'm having is finding decent tutorials that show you how to use this software. Any documentation that come with these packages seem to be written in a way that assumes the user is a full bottle on the subject. So if anyone knows any great tutorials or web sites could you please share them. Cheers Alex From kenb@cqg.com Fri Dec 7 08:20:04 2001 Received: from cqgigw.cqg.com (cqgigw.cqg.com [63.117.14.243]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7FK3U14793 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:20:03 -0700 Received: from cqgmail.cqg.com (cqgmail.cqg.com [192.168.1.9]) by cqgigw.cqg.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fB7FJauX006035; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:19:37 -0700 Received: from d2pkenb (d2pkenb.cqgrd.com [172.16.10.53]) by cqgmail.cqg.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id fB7FJ9Ph025922; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:19:09 -0700 From: "Ken Bertapelle" To: "Hermit" Cc: Subject: RE: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:19:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3C102EA1.5CB460F4@cisnet.com> X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: A while back I tried this using John Upton's OSLO-LT file for setting up the Dahl null test. I eventually got to the point where I could use the program and and run through the procedure to do the setup. And I think I could even interpret the results correctly. (I _think_!) But even at the end of all that I still felt like the monkey who accidentally manages to type the Ecyclopedia Brittanica. Something I still don't really understand is the conceptual basis of it all. For example, in the Dahl null test, what are the detailed concepts involved? What are we trying to optimize? What are the meanings of the terms used, such as "error at the wavefront", "error at the surface", and so on. I think a discussion of the conceptual framework would be very helpful, together with a discussion of how raytracing in general helps us set up and solve optical problems. BTW, somewhere I have a spreadsheet that I set up that is based on John's tutorial on the Dahl null test. It's a detailed description of the procedure using OSLO-LT. If others are interested I can make it available. I don't have a web site so I can't post it myself. - Ken Bertapelle > -----Original Message----- > From: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com > [mailto:raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com]On Behalf Of Hermit > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:51 PM > Cc: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com > Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? > > > "John D. Upton" wrote: > > > > > > Where do you want to get started on this list? I don't > know exactly > > what level of knowledge already exists, so I am unsure. What > do you want > > to discuss? One possible starting point is to discuss things > common to all > > ray-tracing programs -- or whether there is anything in common. > > For many of us, a simple file to look at in a program might help. Maybe > pick a program and look at the file and do simple modifications. A > simple lens might be a good starting place. Followed by a reflector. > Figuring out how/why to set up the original paramaters isn't intuitive > as I recall. > > > > -- > Ken Lowther > Youngstown, Ohio > http://www.atmsite.org > http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap > _______________________________________________ > Raytrace mailing list > Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com > http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace > From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Fri Dec 7 09:47:19 2001 Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7GlIU14932 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:47:18 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-002ilurbap041.dialsprint.net ([158.252.113.153] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16CO9J-0008CX-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:46:57 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011207085427.00a2a110@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:44:59 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 18:46 12/6/2001 -0600, John D. Upton wrote: > For starters, do all programs use the same conventions for data entry? > > OSLO uses a "spreadsheet" format. If you draw out a design on paper > with light starting from the left, the following rules apply. Are these > basic rules the same for all other programs we might be interested in using? I don't *know* the answer to this, but I think professional level design programs are generally consistent in surface numbering and sign conventions as long as you stick to centered systems. I don't think that's necessarily the case with some of the atm oriented software out there. There seem to be no generally accepted standards for specifying tilts & rotations. Documenting differences among programs that atm's are likely to use might be a worthwhile FAQ item. >Perhaps a couple of text prescriptions from OSLO will help illustrate the >(typical?) data entry formats. >This is the text printout of an OSLO design for a simple double convex >lens made of Schott BK7 glass. I'd like to make a modest administrative suggestion here. OSLO .len files are just text files, and they're usually quite short. Embedding the complete file in your posts separated from the text by asterisks or something won't waste a lot of bandwidth -- interested readers can cut, paste, and save using notepad or any other text editor. I'd also suggest - if the site owner and list administrators are willing - maintaining a file upload/download area for list members (maybe the public too). I think Peter Smith is right that the best way to learn this stuff is to play around with existing designs. I learned what little I know by entering published designs from any source I could find into OSLO, and gradually learned new capabilities of the program by trying to extend and optimize existing designs. I've never gotten beyond capabilities that can be accessed with spreadsheet entries, menu selections, or taskbar clicks, but you can do quite a lot without ever mastering the programming language that's part of OSLO. Somewhere on atmsite there are a couple dozen OSLO files that I uploaded a year or so ago. Most of them were entered directly from R&vanV or other published designs. A few months ago Steve Fejes sent me some optimized, flat field APO designs that he built starting from an unoptimized 3 element design that I had swiped from some source (I've forgotten where). If Steve's on the list maybe he can explain how he got from my simple APO to his optimized field corrected version. He really did an amazing design job. The last bit of advice I'd offer is obvious to anyone who's done any kind of design work on a computer. Save files often. If your design goes hopelessly astray just give up and go back to your last working layout. OSLO LT seems to be pretty stable (at least version 5.4 was), and I've rarely crashed it just by doing stupid lens design tricks. I don't think I've ever caused my machine to crash with OSLO. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From jd-upton@texas.net Fri Dec 7 10:44:29 2001 Received: from mw2.texas.net (mw2.texas.net [206.127.30.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7HiTU15032 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:44:29 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet23-053.austin.texas.net [209.99.97.116]) by mw2.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB7Hi8L04581; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:44:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011207111916.00b23eb0@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:43:55 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Cc: Michael Peck In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011207085427.00a2a110@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Mike, At 10:44 AM 12/7/2001 -0600, Michael Peck wrote: >no generally accepted standards for specifying tilts & rotations. >Documenting differences among programs that atm's are likely to use might >be a worthwhile FAQ item. Yes, I agree. That is exactly the type of information the FAQ should contain. It also leads into the next point you raised. >I'd like to make a modest administrative suggestion here. OSLO .len files >are just text files, and they're usually quite short. Embedding the >complete file in your posts separated from the text by asterisks or >something won't waste a I can include the full OSLO file for future examples. There are two problems I see with this, however. The first is that there have been changes in file format as OSLO has evolved. I have both Version 5.4 and Version 6.1 installed on my system. I use 6.1 for some things and 5.4 for others. The reason I keep the older version around is that it supported 12 surfaces while the new version supports only 10. I have an on-going design project that needs 11 surfaces. The second problem is that I was attempting to keep this list generalized to all ray-tracers and not overly advocate a specific one. That is why I posted the text form of the design file descriptions to the list rather than the files themselves. The text prescriptions are somewhat portable from one program to another (I think) and contain all the information about a design in more or less human readable format. Peter John Smith has raised the same concern about ZEMAX files. As you pointed out above, the FAQ should reflect how to do things in the most common programs. I didn't want to "standardize" this list on OSLO. Some members are already quite capable with other programs and may not want to learn OSLO. They have much general ray-tracing knowledge to share and I don't want them to not participate because we are all using a program they are not familiar with. Standardization here becomes two-edged sword. What say you, List? Can we do both effectively? Perhaps we could use OSLO for most of the concept examples (showing the text of the saved design files -- *not* file attachments) and have the users of other programs point out differences in how to do common tasks as we go along. I am willing to do whatever the list wants in this regard. >I'd also suggest - if the site owner and list administrators are willing - >maintaining a file upload/download area for list members (maybe the public >too). I think Peter Smith is right that the best way to learn this stuff is Ken is the person to address this. I think he already has some means of accepting file donations for posting on the ATM Site. Maybe we just need a separate page to list the design files with a short description of the contents. >astray just give up and go back to your last working layout. OSLO LT seems >to be pretty stable (at least version 5.4 was), and I've rarely crashed it >just I agree that OSLO is pretty stable. Version 5.4 is very stable for me on Windows 95, 98, and Me. Version 6.1 has given me some problems on Windows Me, but I've learned to work around them. As you say, they have never crashed hard enough to damage any system files. John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 7 11:24:23 2001 Received: from poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov ([128.183.254.134]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7IOMU15103 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:24:22 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22167 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:24:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011207121219.00ad4dd0@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:36:58 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi:
        Just like to express my thanks to John Upton for his post on raytrace origins.  The post included a message from Peter John Smith which contained a pointer to the site http://www.focussoftware.com/file_exchange/
which I did not know about.

        I went to the site and downloaded the files for the Shafer telescope and Dan Schroeder's (author of Astronomical Optics) files.  Dan's files contained, as PJ Smith mentioned, examples of four mirror telescope designs by RN Wilson.   These are exactly the examples I was looking for.
 
        For those interested, the designs by RN Wilson are for the next generation of extremely large (20-100m) ground telescopes.  Telescope mirrors this big cannot be made in one piece (for economical and practical reasons).  Hence they must be made of many segments.   For reasons of affordability and manufacturability, it is best to make all the mirror segments identical.  Hence the segments are all spherical (spheres and flats are the only possible geometrical figures), resulting in a giant spherical primary mirror.

        The problem with a spherical primary mirror is that, unlike a parabola, it does not focus parallel rays from infinity to a point.  Therefore a minimum of three mirrors are required to make a telescope that has good resolution and an acceptable field of view.  Three mirrors, however, end up sending the light back towards the front of the scope.  That's why four is used in Wilson's design.  Having an extra mirror also permits some optimization, I'm told.

        I loaded the sample files into Zemax and looked at the 3d layout.  They look good.  I need to learn more Zemax and raytracing to understand the details.   But thanks to this list, it has saved me a lot of effort (as I have done in the past) trying to measure the diagrams with a ruler and infer the optical parameters from the original published articles.

Regards,
P.C. Chen
From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 7 11:45:38 2001 Received: from poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.254.134]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7IjbU15156 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:45:37 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27658 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:45:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011207123737.00ad8bd0@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:58:08 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Raytracing mirror support distortions (active optics) Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi: Thought to tell the list of another project I'm interested in, although I'm not sure how well it will work out. David Lewis has written an excellent program called PLOP which is available from his site http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~lewis/. PLOP computes the optical surface shape of a telescope under various support schemes (3 points, 9 points, multiple rings, etc). It is an excellent program and very user friendly. I thought it might be interesting to do raytracing for mirror under a variety of support schemes. This is called 'active optics'. It is especially applicable to large thin mirrors (a la Mel Bartels?). Acitve support is the technique used by the European Southern Observatory in its four 8 meter Very Large Telescopes, currently the biggest in the world. The mirrors are thin and therefore very sensitive to how they are supported. In fact, the VLT supports are cleverly designed to compensate for astigmatism, spherical aberrations, and coma. I wrote to David Lewis some time ago, and he kindly modified a PLOP program to output mirror shapes in Zernike terms. I'm trying to see if it is possible to use the PLOP generated Zernike terms and import them into Zemax (or other programs) and do a raytrace. The ultimate aim, of course, is to be able to adjust the support forces on a mirror to keep it at optimal shape during observations. Wish me luck. I'll try to keep the list informed of my progress. P.C. Chen From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Dec 7 15:30:49 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7MUnU15525 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:30:49 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4158.cisnet.com [207.17.248.158]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:30:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3C114351.CF04BFB0@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:31:45 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011207085427.00a2a110@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Michael Peck wrote: > > I'd also suggest - if the site owner and list administrators are willing - > maintaining a file upload/download area for list members (maybe the public > too). I'll look into it when I have a chance. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Dec 7 16:27:46 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7NRkU15619 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:27:46 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4143.cisnet.com [207.17.248.143]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:27:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3C1150A9.69207D8A@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:28:41 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" Subject: [Fwd: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Peter and all. The mail program is set so that replys go to the original poster. This is 'protection' from accidently sending a private email to the group. On my mailer, I must hit 'reply to all' if I am using the header from another post instead of starting 'fresh'. Ken -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:36:58 -0500 From: Peter Chen To: Hi: Just like to express my thanks to John Upton for his post on raytrace origins. The post included a message from Peter John Smith which contained a pointer to the site http://www.focussoftware.com/file_exchange/ which I did not know about. I went to the site and downloaded the files for the Shafer telescope and Dan Schroeder's (author of Astronomical Optics) files. Dan's files contained, as PJ Smith mentioned, examples of four mirror telescope designs by RN Wilson. These are exactly the examples I was looking for. For those interested, the designs by RN Wilson are for the next generation of extremely large (20-100m) ground telescopes. Telescope mirrors this big cannot be made in one piece (for economical and practical reasons). Hence they must be made of many segments. For reasons of affordability and manufacturability, it is best to make all the mirror segments identical. Hence the segments are all spherical (spheres and flats are the only possible geometrical figures), resulting in a giant spherical primary mirror. The problem with a spherical primary mirror is that, unlike a parabola, it does not focus parallel rays from infinity to a point. Therefore a minimum of three mirrors are required to make a telescope that has good resolution and an acceptable field of view. Three mirrors, however, end up sending the light back towards the front of the scope. That's why four is used in Wilson's design. Having an extra mirror also permits some optimization, I'm told. I loaded the sample files into Zemax and looked at the 3d layout. They look good. I need to learn more Zemax and raytracing to understand the details. But thanks to this list, it has saved me a lot of effort (as I have done in the past) trying to measure the diagrams with a ruler and infer the optical parameters from the original published articles. Regards, P.C. Chen _______________________________________________ Raytrace mailing list Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Dec 7 16:28:45 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7NSjU15640 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:28:45 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4143.cisnet.com [207.17.248.143]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:28:25 -0500 Message-ID: <3C1150CC.D29AD01A@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:29:16 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" Subject: [Fwd: [Raytrace] Raytracing mirror support distortions (active optics)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Raytrace] Raytracing mirror support distortions (active optics) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:58:08 -0500 From: Peter Chen To: Hi: Thought to tell the list of another project I'm interested in, although I'm not sure how well it will work out. David Lewis has written an excellent program called PLOP which is available from his site http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~lewis/. PLOP computes the optical surface shape of a telescope under various support schemes (3 points, 9 points, multiple rings, etc). It is an excellent program and very user friendly. I thought it might be interesting to do raytracing for mirror under a variety of support schemes. This is called 'active optics'. It is especially applicable to large thin mirrors (a la Mel Bartels?). Acitve support is the technique used by the European Southern Observatory in its four 8 meter Very Large Telescopes, currently the biggest in the world. The mirrors are thin and therefore very sensitive to how they are supported. In fact, the VLT supports are cleverly designed to compensate for astigmatism, spherical aberrations, and coma. I wrote to David Lewis some time ago, and he kindly modified a PLOP program to output mirror shapes in Zernike terms. I'm trying to see if it is possible to use the PLOP generated Zernike terms and import them into Zemax (or other programs) and do a raytrace. The ultimate aim, of course, is to be able to adjust the support forces on a mirror to keep it at optimal shape during observations. Wish me luck. I'll try to keep the list informed of my progress. P.C. Chen _______________________________________________ Raytrace mailing list Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Dec 7 16:35:55 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7NZsU15670 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:35:54 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4143.cisnet.com [207.17.248.143]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:35:35 -0500 Message-ID: <3C115292.C2FC7921@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:36:50 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes] References: <3C1150A9.69207D8A@cisnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes > Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:36:58 -0500 > From: Peter Chen > To: > > But thanks to this list, it has saved me a lot of effort (as > I have done in the past) trying to measure the diagrams with a ruler and > infer the optical parameters from the original published articles. > > Regards, > P.C. Chen It is nice to know that there are results already. At least for someone. ;-) -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From trickar1@san.rr.com Fri Dec 7 21:35:20 2001 Received: from smtp2.san.rr.com (smtp2.san.rr.com [24.25.195.39]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB84ZJU16094 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:35:19 -0700 Received: from zxc (66-27-59-56.san.rr.com [66.27.59.56]) by smtp2.san.rr.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id fB84Z0m16020 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:35:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009601c17fa0$c7fe20e0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> From: "Tim Rickard" To: References: <200112071900.fB7J03U15205@blackhole.idcomm.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] where to start? Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:28:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > What say you, List? Can we do both effectively? My two cents: For now, we could standardize on OSLO LT, or some other program if it is generally preferred, to make things more manageable. As Ken suggested, we could start with a simple Newtonian, since presumably all of us are generally familiar with it. The goal would be to make sure everyone has the software and the newt. file working, and to begin exploring how to do various analyses (e.g. wavefront, vingetting effects of various aperture stops, spot diagrams, etc). Then a central obstruction could be modeled, and the MTF analyzed. Then perhaps a simple refractor or a mak-newt., etc. I have in mind an integrated tutorial and Q&A that could become an FAQ. Over time there could be several FAQs on different, more advanced topics. The conceptual stuff is also crucial of course. For newbies like myself, however, getting a simple program running and exploring the program's analysis tools would help to frame the problems concretely while providing a quick success to maintain motivation... Of course, threads for discussing other programs and advanced topics would presumably go on in parallel... Tim From mayen1@mwt.net Sat Dec 8 06:42:14 2001 Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.mwt.net [207.190.94.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB8DgEU16885 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:42:14 -0700 Received: from mwt.net (pm3-3-176.lavalle.mwt.net [207.190.68.176]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB8Dfqr10786; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:41:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C1218EF.FA6632AA@mwt.net> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 07:43:12 -0600 From: Joe Mayenschein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Rickard CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] where to start? References: <200112071900.fB7J03U15205@blackhole.idcomm.com> <009601c17fa0$c7fe20e0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I like this idea. And if we actually work out a step by step an actually constructable scope. all the better. Like One i have been thinking of,,(he he he) but yet have been able to figure out how to get it into the $#%&!#* programs. he he he. It starts out as a simple 10" f- 6 Newtonian. Joe Tim Rickard wrote: > > What say you, List? Can we do both effectively? > > My two cents: For now, we could standardize on OSLO LT, or some other > program > if it is generally preferred, to make things more manageable. As Ken > suggested, we could start with a simple Newtonian, since presumably all of > us are generally familiar with it. The goal would be to make sure everyone > has the software and the newt. file working, and to begin exploring how to > do various analyses (e.g. wavefront, vingetting effects of various aperture > stops, spot diagrams, etc). Then a central obstruction could be modeled, and > the MTF analyzed. Then perhaps a simple refractor or a mak-newt., etc. I > have in mind an integrated tutorial and Q&A that could become an FAQ. Over > time there could be several FAQs on different, more advanced topics. The > conceptual stuff is also crucial of course. For newbies like myself, > however, getting a simple program running and exploring the program's > analysis tools would help to frame the problems concretely while providing a > quick success to maintain motivation... > > Of course, threads for discussing other programs and advanced topics would > presumably go on in parallel... > > Tim > > _______________________________________________ > Raytrace mailing list > Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com > http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From bobmay@nethere.com Sat Dec 8 17:06:03 2001 Received: from lisa.nethere.net (lisa.nethere.net [216.188.38.14]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9062U17772 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:06:02 -0700 Received: from p120 (dyn2-15.sndg-c5300-2.nethere.net [216.188.53.143]) by lisa.nethere.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA89965 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:05:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00d101c18045$587bed60$8f35bcd8@p120> From: "Bob May" To: "raytrace" References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011207085427.00a2a110@popd.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:06:25 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: >>I don't *know* the answer to this, but I think professional level design programs are generally consistent in surface numbering and sign conventions as long as you stick to centered systems. >> Unfortunately, there are differences between the programs as to the direction of things. I'm not familiar with them but have seen notes to that effect on the SCI.OPTICS newsgroup. This is because each and every person that figured out how to do raytracing way back when thought up their standard directions and the rest of the community has never gotten around to stating that a particular set of directions is the right way. I hope this gets to the right path. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay bobmay@nethere.com NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net From jd-upton@texas.net Sat Dec 8 18:40:56 2001 Received: from mw1.texas.net (mw1.texas.net [206.127.30.11]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB91euU17914 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:40:56 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet22-013.austin.texas.net [209.99.97.13]) by mw1.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB91eQi29501 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:40:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011208182344.00b26a80@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 19:40:08 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] where to start? In-Reply-To: <3C1218EF.FA6632AA@mwt.net> References: <200112071900.fB7J03U15205@blackhole.idcomm.com> <009601c17fa0$c7fe20e0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Tim, Joe, This sounds okay to me. We don't seem to have had any takers yet, so here is my attempt to start this process. At 08:28 PM 12/7/2001 -0800, Tim Rickard wrote: > > What say you, List? Can we do both effectively? > >My two cents: For now, we could standardize on OSLO LT, or some other >program >if it is generally preferred, to make things more manageable. As Ken >suggested, we could start with a simple Newtonian, since presumably all of >us are generally familiar with it. The goal would be to make sure everyone >has the software and the newt. file working, and to begin exploring how to >do various analyses (e.g. wavefront, vingetting effects of various aperture >stops, spot diagrams, etc). Then a central obstruction could be modeled, and At 07:43 AM 12/8/2001 -0600, Joe Mayenschein wrote: >I like this idea. > >And if we actually work out a step by step an actually constructable >scope. all >the better. Like One i have been thinking of,,(he he he) but yet have been >able to figure out how to get it into the $#%&!#* programs. he he he. > >It starts out as a simple 10" f- 6 Newtonian. Here is the text prescription for the 10" F/6 Newtonian. The full text of the OSLO-LT file appears at the bottom of this post. Cut the text between the lines and paste it into a file named "newt_10_F6.len" to reconstruct your own copy. *LENS DATA 10" F/6.0 Newtonian SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.0000e+14 AIR AST -120.000000 -60.000000 S 5.000000 AS REFL_HATCH * IMS -- -- 6.0000e-05 S You can also just follow the steps below to create this file yourself. I am using OSLO-LT version 6.1 for this example. 1. Open OSLO-LT. 2. Select File | New Lens... 3. For the file name type newt_10_F6.len 4. For number of surfaces, enter 1. The mirror is the only optical surface in this example. 5. Select OK. The "Surface Data" window will open. Note that there are three lines and multiple columns in the "spreadsheet". The first is labeled OBJ for object, the second is labeled AST for aperture stop, and the third is labeled IMS for image surface. Since there is only one optical surface in this example, that is where the aperture stop must be placed. If there were multiple surfaces, the aperture stop could appear on any one of them and the others would have a number in the SRF label column. The surface numbers would be in listed in the order that light strikes them. 6. In the "Surface Data" Window, select the Gen button. 7. In the "General Conditions" Window, select the Units button and set to inches. 8. In the "Lens:" field, enter a name for the design. I am using '10" F/6.0 Newtonian' for my name. (This is actually a description of the design, not a file name, so it can be almost anything you want. If you want, you can enter even more notes by pressing the "Notes" button and entering your extra data.) 9. Click on the green check mark in the upper left corner. This always accepts the data and can be used to close the window. 10. In the "Surface Data" window, click in the "Ent beam radius" field. Enter the value of the entrance beam radius. This will be the radius of the mirror for this example. Enter 5.0 or you can use the built in formula capability by typing 10.0/2.0 (or 10/2). Press the enter key or click on green check mark. (If you happen to click twice, the "Surface Data" window will close. Open it again by selecting Lens | Update lens data... 11. Click in the RADIUS field of the AST line. Enter the radius of curvature of the mirror. Remember the data entry conventions presented in an earlier post. Since light starts out moving left to right, the concave mirror will have its center of curvature to the left of the mirror itself. This means that the ROC must be entered as a negative number. Again, I will just use the formula capability to enter the ROC of the 10" F/6 mirror. I type -10*6*2 and press enter. 12. Now I have to tell OSLO that this surface is a mirror. I select the button in the GLASS column of line AST and choose Reflect (hatch). We now have a spherical mirror described in the spreadsheet. Save this intermediate result by selecting File | Save. 13. To tell OSLO this is a paraboloidal mirror for a Newtonian, we need to specify its conic constant. Click on the button in the SPECIAL column of the AST line. Select Polynomial Asphere | Conic / Tonic. In the "Conic / Tonic Data" window, enter -1.0 in the Conic constant entry field. Close the Conic / Tonic window by clicking the green check mark. 14. Finally, let's let OSLO find the focal length of the mirror for us. Click on the button in the THICKNESS column of the AST line. Select the Solves | Axial ray height... item. In the "Axial Ray Height" box that pops up, enter 0 and select OK. We just told OSLO we wanted it to find the place where the ray has an axial height of 0 -- in other words where is crosses the optical axis. That marks the paraxial focal point. We are done. Save the file. You now should have a file that is the same as what I have appended in text form below. If you select the "Len" button in the OSLO "TW 1" text window, it should print the same human readable lens prescription that I included at the top of this note. Study its format. It actually contains almost all of the data pertaining to this design. The only thing missing is the conic constant for the mirror. That can be included also by clicking the Spe button in the "TW 1" text window. The contents of this window may be copied and pasted into any text application -- like this post. Cut this and paste into a new notepad file named "newt_10_F6.len". ===CUT BELOW THIS LINE=========================== // OSLO 6.1 41540 0 0 LEN NEW "10\" F/6.0 Newtonian" -60 2 EBR 5.0 ANG 0.0000572957795 DES "OSLO" UNI 25.4 // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 9.9999999995e+13 NXT // SRF 1 RFH RD -120.0 PY 0.0 CC -1.0 NXT // SRF 2 AIR WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 2 ===CUT ABOVE THIS LINE=========================== Let me know if I have messed up this description. Doing a "tutorial" like this real time, I often don't recognize mistakes since it is still too fresh in my mind. John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From dchaffee@blitz-it.net Sun Dec 9 01:12:02 2001 Received: from blitz-it.net ([207.150.87.7]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB98C2U18540 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 01:12:02 -0700 Received: by blitz-it.net from localhost (router,slmail V5.1); Sun, 09 Dec 2001 02:15:46 -0600 for Received: from computer [199.240.90.64] by blitz-it.net [207.150.87.7] (MailWarden 5.1.0.1059 (SLmail Add-On Edition)) with SMTP id C12C0BF5EC7411D591EA0048541AF1E6 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2001 02:15:44 -0600 Message-ID: <004a01c18089$ac6bb7e0$085af0c7@computer> From: "Dan Chaffee" To: Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 02:15:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-SLUIDL: C063DE48-EC7411D5-91EA0048-541AF1E6 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: >I'd also suggest - if the site owner and list administrators are willing - maintaining a file upload/download area for list members (maybe the public too). I think Peter Smith is right that the best way to learn this stuff is to play around with existing designs. I learned what little I know by entering published designs from any source I could find into OSLO, and gradually learned new capabilities of the program by trying to extend and optimize existing designs. I've never gotten beyond capabilities that can be accessed with spreadsheet entries, menu selections, or taskbar clicks, but you can do quite a lot without ever mastering the programming language >that's part of OSLO. Mike, All, This really sums it up for my experience as well. I've manipulated radii and glass types from the simple achromat example you sent me a year ago and learned how to balance enough of the factors to design a decent 176mm f/18(!) BK7-F2 oiled doublet. I wanted to KISS and keep all surfaces spherical since I don't have a reference flat big enough for a double bypass knife edge test. Within the simple parameters of the ray analysis, wavefront evaluation, spot diagrams, and PSF, I've allegedly got a design that should be well color corrected, very low LA on axis in 546nm, and coma no worse than a longish newtonian. Actually, I also arrived at a Fraunhofer of the variant same f/# that is clearly better with off axis performance, but I wanted the advantages of the oiled R2&3 for better transmission and reduction of scatter. The advice on designing lenses in R&V is good and spells out the proccess of trial and error for balancing achromatism with acceptable OSC very well. Here are the specs for the oiled doublet: R1=1490mm R2=-1373 R3=-1373 R4=-14900 T1=17mm T2=16mm Glass 1 is BK7 with Nd=1.51678,Vd=64.15 Glass 2 is F2 with Nd=1.619; Vd-36.34 und der Fraunhofer: R1=2004mm R2=-1106 Air gap= 3.6 R3=-1116 R4=-4330 T1=18 T2=15 Same glasses If anyone wants, I'll email the actual OSLOlt lens files. I had Roger C. run my design through Zemax and he seemed to feel it would be a good performer. I'd welcome anyone elses comments if they are interested. At any rate, the grinding is 98% complete, so I'll know shortly whether or not this will perform to my liking. One possible problem is in the melt data from the glass broker, which gave an odd rationality of dispersion., but was within the range of what is acceptable per the written guarantee, so I couldn't return it. The sales rep I complained to made the mistake of telling me he sold glass to Roland Christian. Naturally, I contacted Roland about the specs and this broker in particular. He advised me to ignore the supplied melt data, since glass brokers rarely have equiptment accurate enough to read indicies and dispersions to justify values under .01. At best their values can only ahow a general trend in higher or lower indicies resulting from the fine & precision annealing that they do. He also said he'd long since done business with the broker in question.... Dan Chaffee From fmilsom@lineone.net Sun Dec 9 07:24:01 2001 Received: from mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com (mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com [212.74.112.73]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9ENmU19051 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 07:23:54 -0700 Received: from ppp-225-4-226.friaco.access.uk.tiscali.com ([80.225.4.226] helo=j6u0z9) by mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16D4oe-000FDk-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:20:29 +0000 Message-ID: <004201c180bd$2f9bd2c0$e204e150@j6u0z9> From: "francis milsom" To: Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:21:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C180BC.CB760180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [Raytrace] Getting started Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C180BC.CB760180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Perhaps a good place to start, especially for those with no background = in tracing optical systems is for someone who perhaps has the = experience, to give some details of more popular (free?) downloadable = programs and their url's. That way those without the programs can get up = to speed more easily and contribute to the list in a more understandable = way. Francis ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C180BC.CB760180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
 
Perhaps a good place to start, = especially for those=20 with no background in tracing optical systems is for someone who = perhaps=20 has the experience, to give some details of more = popular (free?)=20 downloadable programs and their url's. That way those without the = programs can=20 get up to speed more easily and contribute to the list in a more = understandable=20 way.
 
Francis
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C180BC.CB760180-- From mayen1@mwt.net Sun Dec 9 08:12:54 2001 Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.mwt.net [207.190.94.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9FCsU19133 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:12:54 -0700 Received: from mwt.net (pm3-5-60.lavalle.mwt.net [207.190.69.60]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB9FCU925534 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:12:31 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C137FB0.E73AA287@mwt.net> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 09:13:52 -0600 From: Joe Mayenschein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Raytrace!" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] File Storage Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi All, I just made or at yahoo groups a place we can store files, images, plans, whatever. a somewhat crude archive for files etc. It is usually used as a message board e-mail reflector type of thing.. but it has a lot of more features also like the file data storage feature. we can stuff 20 meg's of files there for free. The front door to the area is,, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learn_to_raytrace I'm putting in the 10" f-6 oslo file in there as soon as i'm done with this message. let me know if you guys like the storage idea? Joe P.S. On yahoo,, i'm fuzzydog1 ,,, don't ask.. he he From klowther@cisnet.com Sun Dec 9 08:34:11 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9FYAU19184 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:34:11 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 10:33:47 -0500 Message-ID: <3C138496.96F8FBD@cisnet.com> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 10:34:46 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "Raytrace!" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] File Storage References: <3C137FB0.E73AA287@mwt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Joe Mayenschein wrote: I personaly have given up on Yahoo. Our club has a list there. I sent my final message to it yesterday. It never showed up. Maybe because I refuse to sign up with Yahoo? You cannot access the files and archives unless you open an account with Yahoo. The list owner can directly subscribe someone to a mailing list but all of the options are closed to them. Yahoo's taking over egroups is the main reason I learned how to install and configure the Mailman software. ;-) Since the files are text base, it shouldn't be a big deal for people to save them as files in a directory on their hard disks. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From mayen1@mwt.net Sun Dec 9 08:58:29 2001 Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.mwt.net [207.190.94.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9FwTU19237 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:58:29 -0700 Received: from mwt.net (pm3-2-124.lavalle.mwt.net [207.190.68.124]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB9Fw3916267; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:58:04 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C138A5B.D48183CB@mwt.net> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 09:59:24 -0600 From: Joe Mayenschein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hermit CC: "Raytrace!" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] File Storage References: <3C137FB0.E73AA287@mwt.net> <3C138496.96F8FBD@cisnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: If you haven't noticed or read their messages Yahoo is killing all the "Clubs" they are moving to the "Groups" format and names. You need to change your "Club" over to a "Group" I am the member of over 50 "Groups" and all work fine. It's the clubs that are erratic and not working at all if any ,, anymore. Joe Hermit wrote: > Joe Mayenschein wrote: > > I personaly have given up on Yahoo. Our club has a list there. I sent > my final message to it yesterday. It never showed up. Maybe because I > refuse to sign up with Yahoo?